tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6437160031771728493.post8512227232764563414..comments2024-02-20T01:26:10.105-07:00Comments on The Sacred Landscape: Reflections of a Catholic Architect: I'd bet that Pope Francis really does know what he's talking about... Schloederhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05785521997797017430noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6437160031771728493.post-10808379570941514152013-11-13T07:41:45.355-07:002013-11-13T07:41:45.355-07:00You have left me much to ponder. Thank you for act...You have left me much to ponder. Thank you for actually taking the time to explain, reasonably and logically, so that I can learn.Jeffhttp://www.trcthoughts.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6437160031771728493.post-67098657212451965292013-11-12T17:02:10.796-07:002013-11-12T17:02:10.796-07:00“The word of God that Christ spoke to his holy ap...<b>“The word of God that Christ spoke to his holy apostles and disciples: “Who receives you, receives me” (Mt 10:40); and “whoever rejects you, rejects me” (Lk 10:16), we believe was addressed also to all those who, and after them and in accordance with them, became supreme pontiffs and leaders of the pastors in the Catholic Church. We , therefore, determine that <i> absolutely none of the ruling powers of this world shall dishonor </i> or attempt to remove from his throne any of those who occupy patriarchal sees, <i> but they must judge them worthy of all reverence and honor; especially the most holy Pope of elder Rome </i>; and also in order of succession, the patriarch of Constantinople, then indeed those of Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem; <i> no one, however, is to compose or prepare any writings and discourses against the most holy pope of elder Rome </i> under the pretext, as it were, of supposed crimes committed; something Photius did recently and Dioscorus much earlier.<br /><br />But whoever, like Photius and Dioscorus, will manifest such insolence and audacity that <i> he promotes injuries of some sort against the See of Peter, the chief of the apostles, whether in writing or not </i>, let him receive a condemnation equal to and identical to theirs. <br /><br />…But if an ecumenical council is assembled and there appears some doubt or controversy even with regard to the holy church of the Romans, it is necessary, <i> with great respect and proper reverence, </i> to investigate the point of controversy and procure a solution, either by helping or by obtaining help, yet <i> not by audaciously pronouncing a judgment against the supreme pontiff of elder Rome </i>. </b><br /><br />Fourth Council of Constantinople (Eighth Ecumenical Council) Oct 5, 869 – Feb 28, 870. Denzinger 661, 662, 664. <br />-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br /><br />From the above, it seems there is a strong tendency among traditional Catholics to "to compose or prepare any writings and discourses against the most holy pope of elder Rome" which "[promote] injuries of some sort against the See of Peter" and to not show "great respect and proper reverence" but rather "audaciously pronouncing a judgment against the supreme pontiff of elder Rome". If the Eighth Ecumenical Council holds that, how much do you really think you can push that boundary? <br /><br />And to your point about methods of evangelization, that is something that I specifically commented on in my last section. It seems we really ought to take our cues from the Successor of Peter -- assuming that we trust in the Holy Spirit to continue to guide the Church through the Petrine Office. Pope Francis is indeed opening new doors to evangelization for us all, precisely because of his example and message of relationship and confronting both the believer and the unbeliever with the transformation that happens through encounter with Christ. <br /><br />I applaud your earnestness, and your orthodoxy, and your desire to conform yourself to the Church. I am most serious in cautioning against some private or partial judgment against the Holy See, or any presumption that the Holy Father is not properly leading the Church toward the fullness of the truth and into ever deeper union with Christ. Simply put, that cannot end well. <br /><br />God bless, <br /><br />Steve<br />Schloederhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05785521997797017430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6437160031771728493.post-62549518695109671212013-11-12T17:01:46.815-07:002013-11-12T17:01:46.815-07:00Hi Jeff: I appreciate your comment and words of c...Hi Jeff: I appreciate your comment and words of correction. I did of course use your own blog as a starting point for this reflection because I saw it as both typical of a certain way of approaching what Pope Francis is telling us (with a decidedly critical and even dismissive tone), and an erroneous understanding of what he is saying which then becomes the occasion to defend Orthodoxy against the Holy See. <br /><br />In both what you originally wrote that I responded to, and in my own writings, there is a certain unavoidable conflation of ideas when writing in reaction to things we find troublesome. You for instance seem to be implying that the Holy Father is NOT telling us to evangelize or uphold the Church's orthodoxy, or that the New Evangelization is deficient (hence you want to stick to the Old Evangelization), which turn out to be false positions that are not even remotely being said by Pope Francis. I, in a somewhat similar manner, take your own words as indicative of a wider spread phenomenon rippling through Traditional Roman Catholic circles of adverse judgments against the Holy See. I did use your identification as emblematic of the problem, and though I deliberately avoided calling you out by name, I certainly understand why you take this as a personal attack. It was not intended so, more as a rhetorical device, but I accept the remonstration. <br /><br />I cannot blithely accept that you did not write your own essay without judgment of the Pope, as much as you might protest that point. It is not only the teachings of the Holy See, but the moral and admonitory authority of the Holy See that we as Catholics ought to uphold. Especially, it seems to me, as we publicly voice criticisms on blogs to our audiences. Consider carefully what the Fourth Council of Constantinople writes, regarding even secular rulers and ecumenical councils presuming to hold the person of the Pope in much more severe cases of supposed actual crimes or theological controversies, which should give us lay folk serious cause to be much more temperate and reticent in our petty criticisms or presumptions that we somehow know better than the Keeper of the Keys: <br />Schloederhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05785521997797017430noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6437160031771728493.post-34295549248549696102013-11-12T10:18:50.344-07:002013-11-12T10:18:50.344-07:00Hi Steven!
I was a bit taken aback at seeing that...Hi Steven!<br /><br />I was a bit taken aback at seeing that you wrote about my blog, after all, I did notice that you commented on my post. I have comment moderation on, and I approved your comment, because, even though you disagreed, your tone was incredibly charitable and you raised some valid points that would allow for discussion.<br /><br />After reading this, you raise even more points that will allow me to go back in prayer, and ponder. Even though I am a Traditional Roman Catholic (self-appointed apparently), I spend much time in prayer reflecting on these things. In fact I posted before about some things Pope Francis has said, and have asked those that read to correct me, which you have done.<br /><br />I would like to point out though, that after reading your opening paragraph, I feel as though you were not only attacking me, but those with the similar viewpoints. The comment you left on my blog was charitable, but when you open with an ad hominen attack like that, you are lucky that I even spent the time to bother reading what your point(s) were.<br /><br />We are all Catholics, and we are all at different stages in the journey to Heaven (God-willing we all make it). No path is the same. Similarities there are, yes, but, I'd be hard pressed to find two that are alike.<br /><br />I would also like to point out, that having a disagreement with someone does not equate to judging. No where throughout this post did I go and "judge" Pope Francis. I simply disagreed with what he said. After all, this isn't Church teaching we are disagreeing on, but a matter of methods of Evangelizing. If my intent was unclear, I apologize for that.<br /><br />God bless,<br />JeffJeffhttp://www.trcthoughts.comnoreply@blogger.com